Ok so you buy your carbon credits from Al, you plant 50 twigs in the jungle, (half of which die due to drought) and the other half are eaten by goats. You feel great; you can run your laptop all night on your good deeds. Now on our team, We take and cutdown a 250 year old live oak. We make a nice table, a few other items, we turn the limbs in to firewood, and the wood shavings into charcoal to roast up some good spotted owl, or other tasty critters. Who wins? I say this, to let you know it will take all of us to make a difference. When you put out your Greenpeace, your al gores, and your Earth Firsters, We take offence at their condemning tone and attitudes. Did you not ever hear that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? You take our jobs away and send them to third world countries, where they still cut down the trees, you complain about the coal tearing up the mountains, so we import it from Japan and China. You outlaw the a/c in our cars, so now we pay 5 times the world market price for repairs, while the rest of the world just laughs. Do you really think you can succeed by FORCEING your ideals down our throats? Wana bet on that one? Maybe you should try talking a little more, and forcing a little less.

When is the BBQ?

You've got a point. Radicals of all stripes are offensive to any well-meaning person. How about we all work together to find a good solution.BTW, not much meat on a spotted owl. Go for something larger.

The problem isn't with the nut cases. The problem is that the government sees a buck to be made off this stuff. And the working class is going to have to pay the bill - again.

You want to eat spotted owl? All 4 billion of us really need ot do is turn a few lights off every now and again. Surely even a squirrel eating one tooth can manage that much towards the environment for the next generation to inherit?

I think talking is a great plan so we could all discuss these ideas. I am sorry I just don't know where to start with this question. There is so much information in it. It would be great if you could break your ideas down so we can answer the best we can.I do like the statement you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. First we must decide what we want to catch and why? Then what we are going to do with it when we have caught it. This may sound daft but it really is important to be clear about what we are wanting to do. I will answer my own question: LOL. I want to catch the attention of people who leave lights on. Why because it saves electricity and it is easy to turn off lights if we are just a little more careful than usual. Then it saves us money too. Great all round. Now comes the really difficult part. What are we going to do with all these people who now know that turning lights off is better for the environment AND SAVES MONEY?Because: Most of them will ignore us. Some may laugh, a few may be convinced and want to save money so start turning off the lights. Over time many of these will return to their old light leaving on habits.So what is the solution to this? You and I know that leaving on lights is bad for the environment and is costing lots of money. So how do we encourage them to DO it? You obviously spend a lot of time thinking about these issues. So it would be great if you could help me work this out.

a discourse on the differences between the views might prove helpful. could be that we're not so far apart as you seem to think: i like that you appreciate how valuable that tree is, and how many diverse products can be made FROM it: okay, then how can we make sure that the tree population we HAVE can be PROTECTED so future generations will be able to appreciate them ,and use them wisely?nobody wants to see jobs lost: "people care" should be a primary concern in a sound environmental strategy, and in fact is in permaculture. if there are no people with jobs, then the system collapses upon itself. this is part of the reason WHY there is so much degradation of the environment: the very rich can usurp it at the expense of the poor who stand idly by. those days will soon be past i hope.i understand your resentment at lifestyle changes that you feel may be 'pushed' upon you. it's natural to be upset at those you feel might play a part in this. but further discourse to find out WHY it may be desirable for people to change their ways might help ALL of us reach a compromise that protects EVERYONE... man and nature, because we're in this together. peace.